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Forum:2019-12-18 (Wednesday)
Discussion for comic for . Many editors make long wikis. ---- Oh Tarvek, you sneak. "Avoiding mass deaths" and "saving Agatha from an unpleasant fate at the hands of the Baron" are not the same thing at all. And you know it. --Geoduck42 (talk) 06:03, December 18, 2019 (UTC) : Yeah, he can't be sweating the deal with Lucrezia, can he? Both Lu-in-Agatha and Lunevka seemed to know he has double-crossed them. Does he still have a hope His plan to become Storm King can still work? Doug Relyea (talk) 06:16, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :: More using Gil's love of Agatha to distract him from the very valid point that Tarvek's changing the message led pretty directly to the Baron getting wasped and seriously injured, the empire collapsing and Europa being thrown into turmoil- if Klaus had seen that uncorrupted message, his meeting with LuAgatha would have gone very ''differently. --Geoduck42 (talk) 06:28, December 18, 2019 (UTC) ::: Nobody knows about the Baron being wasped, did Gil hear the story the Baron told while in the hospital? I don't remember. 07:48, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :::: Gil knows that Klaus is wasped. He was told by the storyteller and figured it out with the help of Tarvek. 09:16, December 18, 2019 (UTC) No talk about the cliffhanger yet? Wooster must have been recorded way later than the original message. Meaning either he intentionally added a message, or was caught monologing by the drone. Either way, since the drone ended up in a lab in the dome and was not given back to Agatha, it should be clear that the message is not intended for the boys. Will they learn something about the Queen? Will they learn about a plan to contain Agatha in England with or without L-i-A? Was Wooster working with the secret society? Was he the eyeball in the door? Will we cut away to somewhere completely different on Friday? Questions, questions, questions... 09:16, December 18, 2019 (UTC) : He's definitely not Mr. Eyeball. When Steelgarter had her meeting with that worthy, Wooster was busy conducting his murder investigation with Snackford. --Geoduck42 (talk) 14:12, December 18, 2019 (UTC) : It looks like it was a recording of his reaction when he first found the messagebot. Him being a stalwart British agent and all, he would have brought it back for study by the society of British sparks but that isn't really new information. Similarly, the presence of the Agatha message does not tell us anything new. By the theory of Chekhov's Voicemail, presumably this whole page would not have been included were it not going to lead to some larger plot point. Could Albia resurrect Wooster from a video recording? Is the much left to learn about the sparks under the dome and their experiments on the 'bot? Insufficient data, but looking forward to more. 9thGeneral (talk) 21:54, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :: Well, I hope you're right, but I don't find Checkhov convincing in this context, since this is hardly the first act. This scene can be viewed as a tying off of loose ends from Sturmhalten. Bkharvey (talk) 00:59, December 19, 2019 (UTC) ::: All fair points. It just seemed that the loose end of Wooster finding the bot hardly seems worthy of a panel. Resurrection is absurdist, but this is a cartoon, so yea, nah. If there is more to this page then loose ends, it is possible that the remainder of Wooster's message informs Gil and Tarvek's discussions. 9thGeneral (talk) 17:12, December 19, 2019 (UTC) Wooster is probably a taped message, but the way he said oh! And this is interesting makes me wonder if somehow his conciousness was transfered into the dingbot and he was reacting to seeing gil when wooster was in that state. Its most likely a recording though. Maybe he professes his love for Trewlawney.Lapointdm (talk) 10:25, December 18, 2019 (UTC) : Okay, so when Tarvek changed the message, he was still a sneak, attempting to displace the Wulfenbachs. He didn't have his epiphany until much later while inside Castle Heterodyne, after he found out Gilgamesh Holzenfaler was really Gilgamesh Wulfenbach. ::He was a sneak trying to stay alive. The Geisters, especially Vrin, did not trust him. He had to suck up to Lucrezia to survive. Because of his father's death, he was expecting the Baron's Quester - one person with a small entourage - from whom he had to hide his families involvement with the Other. Remember that he and his sister were plotting against their father and opposed to his efforts to bring back Lucrezia. Agatha wanted to tell the Baron about that involvement via her message. He had to block that and somehow keep her and himself alive. We readers may not like what he did but you need to see why he did it through his eyes. His plan went to hell when Klaus hit Sturmhalten with a full airborne assault. --Fred1740 (talk) 13:57, December 18, 2019 (UTC) ::: Putting aside his motives at the time, again, right now, he is lying to Gil about what the effects of the uncorrupted message would have been. --Geoduck42 (talk) 14:12, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :::: How is he lying? He says Klaus would have killed Agatha (possibly after dissection) and that's true. He's not calling attention to his own desire to restart the Storm King's empire; his immediate concern is for Gil not to kill him (hence the "whew" when Gil buys it) but Gil already knows about that. He just has to convince Gil that having shown Klaus the undoctored message wouldn't have done what Gil wants, which is that they all live happily ever after. Bkharvey (talk) 14:58, December 18, 2019 (UTC) ::::: The lie is the part where he says that mass bloodshed was inevitable. If Klaus (and everyone else) had seen the original uncorrupted message before confronting Lu-in-Agatha, things would have gone very differently. Yes, probably badly for Agatha personally, but Klaus wouldn't have been wasped and injured, there would have been no Siege of Mechanicsburg and the Empire wouldn't have fallen apart. Tarvek deftly uses Gil's love of Agatha to distract Gil from this point. --Geoduck42 (talk) 15:16, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :::::: Well, I guess "inevitable" is putting it strongly, but if Klaus had thought Agatha was a lightweight who could easily be captured, then the battle at Sturmhalten would still have happened, supposing Agatha was in control. Hard to say what Klaus might have done differently. Maybe use some gas weapon to knock Agatha and/or Lucrezia out. ''That might have prevented mass bloodshed at Sturmhalten. As for wasping, Klaus (like almost everyone else) believed Sparks were immune, so he might have arranged a conversation with Lu-in-A, at which he still might have been wasped. Still, I grant your main point, namely that Tarvek doesn't want Gil thinking about this in any detail. Bkharvey (talk) 19:03, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :::::: :::::: P.S. And, at this late date, Tarvek could likely have said "Yes, you're right. I'm really ashamed of how I behaved before we had that argument in the Castle when you convinced me not to want the Other's enslavement technology. I apologize to you, to your father, to Agatha, and to all of Europa." without Gil killing him. But that would have taken a lot of courage. Tarvek is physically extremely brave, but at this point he's not brave about potential ostracism by his friends. Bkharvey (talk) 01:04, December 19, 2019 (UTC) :::::::When I say "mass bloodshed" I (and I believe Gil) mean Europa-wide. Just Sturmhalten, yeah, with all the monsters, Geisters and wasped citizens, some sort of battle there was probably inevitable. But as you say, if Klaus knew who and what he was facing ahead of time, mass C-Gassing from the air is about the best that Agatha and Co. could have hoped for. He hauls her back to Castle Wulfenbach under heavy restraint and guard, and again there's no Siege of Mechanicsburg, no time-bubble, no collapsing Wulfenbach empire. He might also have found out about mecha-Lu, but that's even more hypothetical. --Geoduck42 (talk) 01:51, December 19, 2019 (UTC) : Except for the Wind-burn around his eyes, Ardsley Wooster is dressed as he was upon arrival at Sturmhalten and his appearance at the Circus. Curious that he was recorded, yes. : As to cutting away to somewhere else, I've been expecting us to go check on (General) Vole in Paris, since after Airman Higgs appeared on the submarine with Wooster and Tarvek. Prior to Higgs appearance on the sub, he and Vole were headed for Paris. Doug Relyea (talk) 10:29, December 18, 2019 (UTC) :: Good morning. , Tarvek already saw himself as part of Team Agatha, but thought that that would be compatible to appropriating the Other's technology to consolidate the empire that he and Agatha, as Storm King and Queen, would rule. But the main thing is, he says "I won't allow it" about Agatha's plan of turning herself in to Klaus, because (as he repeats here) Klaus would just destroy her. So he has to postpone any meeting between the two of them. Back then he thought it was okay to further his idea of Agatha's interest by subverting Agatha's idea of her own interest, because (naturally) he was right and she was wrong. So it's noteworthy that in today's episode he convinces Gil that he was right and she was wrong. Really he did quite well at juggling his own interest, Agatha's, and Klaus's; unfortunately, he still thinks it's okay to protect Agatha's interest against her will. That's the epiphany he has in Mechanicsburg: You have to respect people's autonomy. Bkharvey (talk) 14:51, December 18, 2019 (UTC) Does anyone recall the publish date for the altered message, or have a link to it? I've forgotten what it said and would really like to compare them again 16:48, December 18, 2019 (UTC) : Bkharvey (talk) 19:03, December 18, 2019 (UTC) It'd be nice to know how Gil was going to end that sentence in the next-to-last panel. Bkharvey (talk) 03:52, December 19, 2019 (UTC) : My first guess would be " have a hard time convincing my father that Agatha is no longer controlled by Lucrezia." Doug Relyea (talk) 05:53, December 19, 2019 (UTC)